Part I of this interview provided a general introduction to the concept of the Underground Reich where we touched upon its elemental modus operandi. In the next segments, we will focus in greater depth on the history of the Underground Reich, how it became a world wide network, as well as exposing the Underground Reich operating behind current events.
AV: Before we examine the historical trajectory of the Underground Reich, I would like to address the events that took place in Charlottesville this past weekend (August 13). Now the topic of Nazis dominates both media reporting and general public discourse. Do you have any comments on what happened and the responses thus far?
A photograph of Charlottesville victim Heyer is seen amongst flowers at the scene of the car attack on a group of protesters in Charlottesville © Justin Ide / Reuters
HT: Yes. An innocent young girl, Heather Heyer, was killed protesting against Neo-Nazis, and now the issue of the Underground Reich is front page news. Unfortunately this is what I have been concerned about since these escalating clashes began. Most people have no idea how dangerous what we are facing actually is. There are hundreds of well armed, highly trained fascist groups and militias, many interlocking with the military, police, FBI, and the CIA. They are also funded by wealthy backers. This isn’t a new phenomena. It goes back to well before the Civil War when “copperheads” as they were called, would lynch free Blacks and even Whites who supported the abolition of slavery. Post Civil War saw the rise of the KKK and other terrorist groups populated by former Confederate officers. In a sense they were among the original Underground Reich or “Invisible Empire” as they called it. They shared many similarities with the fascist White Russians and defeated German officers who were the founders of the Third Reich before going underground after World War 2 – a pattern that would repeat itself in Taiwan after the Chinese Revolution and in Miami after the Cuban Revolution.
AV. While we can see, as you say, the Underground Reich behind front page news, not many will view it that way, and this is where the greatest danger lies is it not, in how these events are interpreted and understood?
HT: Obviously, to someone who hasn’t researched the topic, it might seem impossible or crazy to believe that an Underground Reich could manipulate events this way. However, once they study the enormous influence of Reinhard Gehlen on the Cold War and the CIA, the history of the Gladio networks in Europe which conducted thousands of terror attacks, followed the career of Al Qaeda from Afghanistan, to Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Macedonia, Iraq, Syria and Libya, and examined the workings of the World Anti-Communist League network combining fascists and respectable mainstream politicians, and explored the role of fascists in post Cold War Europe in Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Poland and Ukraine, once one realizes that Germany and Japan were never de-Nazified or cleansed from militarism, and investigated Operation Condor which ruled most of Latin America with an iron fist – then one would be forced to admit that however crazy it sounds at first, the impact of fascism on world history did not end in 1945.
AV: When we see events like this, it is tempting now to ask if Gladio was behind it. Given their mandate is to perpetrate acts of home grown terror, perhaps all acts of terror, wherever they occur, should be viewed as Gladio in action. Ultimately, the most revealing is cui bono? In this case it seems the Nazis are the primary beneficiaries as media portrays them as victims of a hate crime.
HT: The real victim was protesting the Nazis. However the incident was seized on to demonize Assad supporters. Neo-Nazis are bragging online that this is a first step in a strategy of tension that will lead to a race war, but they have been trying to start a race war for decades. Frankly, I see it as a blunder since they killed a white girl and brought the rage of the mainstream media upon themselves. This is a country in which a missing American white girl has in the past dominated the news for months at a time. However, sadly people will soon forget this case once the news cycle shifts. The rally itself was undeniably a well planned psyop and I’m sure it gained them many new recruits.
AV: What is interesting is all the fracture lines being played simultaneously, in seeming discord, yet fulfilling a common agenda – from Nazis as victims, to the stirring of anti-Assad sentiment.
It’s also revealing that the Nazis are broadcasting, to quote you,”that this is a first step in a strategy of tension that will lead to a race war”. They are using Gladio language, Gladio terminology.
HT: Yes, they are using Gladio language. Gladio was (and still is) a secret army (active in all NATO, and even neutral European countries) of “stay behind networks”. They justified this by claiming they would be used to resist a Soviet invasion, when they knew there was no such threat. The CIA, MI6, and NATO intelligence, in conjunction with the local intelligence services and the military, created secret armies in every country with hidden arms stockpiles. The recruits were usually fascists. They were used to wage secret wars via bombings, kidnappings and assassinations, which they would blame on the left. The most famous example is Italy, where each secret army had their own distinct name, yet researchers refer to them all as Gladio for convenience sake. It was psychological warfare meant to both discredit the left and empower the military and intelligence agencies that were actually behind the operations. With the War on Terror, and the CIA’s close ties to Al Qaeda which it claims to be fighting, this scenario has entrapped the whole world. Every terrorist attack should be viewed with suspicion. On the other hand, once you train someone and use them to carry out terror attacks, they may decide to launch an attack for their own purposes. Each case should be investigated. There is a troubling pattern in recent terror attacks in which the attacker was under surveillance by security services who are mysteriously called off a couple weeks before the attack takes place.
AV: You describe a global secret empire: the government behind many governments, the army behind many armies, the intelligence agency behind many intelligence agencies…which leads back to your mention of the “Invisible Empire, ” which we have not discussed in the previous segment of our interview. Do the Underground Reich refer to themselves by that name? It’s a rather grandiose self-perception isn’t it?
HT: Invisible Empire is how the KKK referred to themselves. I was struck by the similarity to the term Underground Reich (Reich means empire. Rome was the first Reich. The holy Roman Empire the second, hence the term term Third Reich). Both the KKK and the Nazis were and are completely grandiose and megalomaniacal.
AV: Again, looking at Charlottesville in the context of Gladio, the one thing media spin masters have skillfully avoided addressing is America’s race problem. But the Nazis are discussing it, strategizing the next step in their version of a race war…
HT: Unfortunately, yes. If liberals weren’t so busy whitewashing history and preaching ‘American exceptionalism,’ maybe we wouldn’t have so many ignorant people believing in “white genocide.”
While I’m glad so many are taking a stand against a resurgence of fascism at home, given how for many years I and others have been desperately trying to draw attention to the genocidal war in Ukraine, I cannot resist pointing out the liberal hypocrisy. Only last year Hollywood nominated a movie glorifying Ukrainian fascists for an Oscar. While Obama was in the White House, he launched a racist war against Libya that began with the lynching of Black Libyans. At the same time he also waged a genocidal war in Syria to exterminate religious minorities. Then came the fascist coup in Ukraine that launched Cold War 2.0, which most liberals support. Anti-Russian hysteria is not seen as racist. Liberals have been silent while Muslims were demonized after 9/11. Until American liberals can bring themselves to actually care what happens to the people of Africa, Asia, and Latin America, their claims to champion racial equality will remain nothing more than hypocritical nonsense.
AV: How do you view the protests that have swept across America since the election of Trump? Are they based on a genuine resistance to fascism and white supremacy or are they more of a battle between the Clinton and Trump camps?
HT: Even the current outrage against the murder of Heather Heyer is tainted by racism. I was inspired to write my Underground Reich article in part because while I was reading The Hitler Legacy, a Black student, David Josiah Lawson, was murdered by racists close to my home. No one has been charged and the case received no nationwide media attention. One can only wonder how many other recent hate crimes against minorities were ignored or suppressed to avoid scandal, not to mention the three police shootings a day. America is in complete denial about its racism problem. It is ironic that the victim of the Charlottesville attack received so much attention because she was white. Hence even right wing racists like Trump condemned her death along with John McCain who actively supported the fascists in Ukraine just as he did in Libya and Syria.
Hillary also condemned it but the Clintons have also been allied with fascists, including the Croatian lobby during the 90’s. Croatia was one of the most brutal fascist dictatorships of World War 2. They massacred countless Jews, Serbs, and Gypsies in the most gruesome manner imaginable. During the Cold War they formed terrorist groups backed by the CIA and Germany’s BND. With the end of the Cold War, Bush senior and the Germans put them back in power and used them to destroy Yugoslavia. The Clintons won the 1992 elections in part due to the support of the powerful Croatian lobby when they promised to back Croatia in the civil war. Like with today’s Ukraine, Americans didn’t care that we had installed a fascist regime since most know nothing about the history of Croatia. No one cared in the 1990’s when they expelled 250,000 Serbs from their homes where they had lived for centuries. This was accomplished with the help of the Clintons who sent in the mercenary firm MPI, to advise and train the Croatians. The Clintons also implemented racist policies at home, slashing welfare and overseeing a massive expansion in the prison system population from half a million to over two million. They recolonized Haiti, once the home of the world’s first successful anti-slavery revolution and the first third world country to achieve national liberation. Hillary’s protégé, Victoria Nuland, oversaw the fascist coup in Ukraine.
American politics is merely a game of crypto-fascists like the Clintons vs open fascists like Trump.
AV: Given the intensity of the psychological war combined with general lack of public awareness of deep events, I cannot see a way to avoid the fulfillment of the Nazi’s goal of a race war unless people become informed about the true nature of the enemy, and here I don’t just mean the enemy of people of a specific race, gender, color, religion, or nation, but the enemy of all humanity.
HT: Well, for Blacks and other minorities this race war has been going on for centuries and in more recent times has been hidden behind the war on drugs, the war on terror and COINTELPRO targeting of leaders. There is also an ongoing economic war on ordinary people. Even some of my white friends live in desperate conditions of poverty.
To live in America is to live under a constant state of low intensity warfare.
A civil war would cripple the empire and topple the ruling elite. They have spent trillions of dollars indoctrinating the world in the illusion of American democracy, so I don’t think they would bring in an open dictatorship without threat of revolution. We will probably see more hate crimes, more terror attacks, I don’t think America will enter into a Syria-style civil war or become an openly fascist dictatorship. Worldwide however, we are in the midst of World War 4 which could easily escalate and destroy all life on the planet. One of the major hot points is Ukraine, so in that sense, the Underground Reich does pose a grave threat to humanity.
AV: Well said.
I would leave this thought: Not only in America, but in every nation of the world, we live in a constant state of low intensity warfare. We can see the tremendous advances made by progressive social movements confronting empire with intelligence, strategic brilliance and principled strength. Just as humans created the structures that oppress, we can also dismantle them.
In Part III we will continue to explore the history of the Underground Reich, from its origins through to the present, to provide context for understanding its function in the destabilization of sovereign nations, the Gladio network and international terrorism.
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