Alexandra Valiente and Hugo Turner
When I read Hugo Turner’s article, Underground Reich, my immediate sense was that this was clearly the most important information people could have in this era of growing fascism, racism and widespread oppression.
I found in that piece, a perfect summation of things I had discovered in my own research and experience. But it went much farther, as Hugo provided a detailed summary of the history of the Underground Reich from its inception to the global phenomenon it is today. He exposed the tactics of deception deployed that enabled it to thrive, hiding in plain sight behind a multitude of organizations, political and religious movements.
As Hugo and I discussed this research and the revelations based on the investigative work of Dave Emory, it was clear to me that this topic deserved deeper exploration.
Exposing the Underground Reich – Part I
Alexandra Valiente: Welcome Hugo. I am pleased that you agreed to do this interview.
Hugo Turner: Thanks. It’s a pleasure, plus of course I owe you for agreeing to share your knowledge in an interview on Libya last year.
AV: Some researchers have referred to the existence of the “Fourth Reich” but they haven’t addressed the full depth and breadth of it have they? What led you to this area of inquiry and the discovery of the Underground Reich?
HT: Well, my research on the war on terror lead me to the importance of Operation Gladio and the related Gladio B, better known as Al Qaeda, ISIS, Daesh, etc., exposed so brilliantly by Sibel Edmonds. Also, during the NATO war on Libya, I was so disturbed by the level of propaganda turning reality on its head that I began to research previous “humanitarian interventions,” like the war on Yugoslavia, and was stunned to discover that NATO had installed a fascist regime in Croatia, a fact completely opposite to the narrative during the war when the Serbs were falsely accused of being the new Nazis. Thus when the war in Ukraine began and the US once again installed an openly fascist government, I undertook a more in-depth investigation of the topic. I had read The Iran-Contra Connection by Peter Dale Scott, Jane Hunter and Jonathan Marshall, which has a great deal of information about the World Anti-Communist League and the CIA ties to fascists right before the coup. One of my earliest articles, America the CIA and Fascism, was an attempt to convey everything I knew about fascism up to that point.
I expanded on what I had written in that article after reading Christopher Simpson’s Blowback: America’s Recruitment of Nazis and Its Effects on the Cold War, and wrote Nazis and the CIA.
I then read NATO’s Secret Armies: Operation Gladio and Terrorism in Western Europe, by Daniele Ganser, which became the basis for my next article, Operation GLADIO, on the use of fascists to carry out false flag terror attacks to manipulate public opinion.
Next I tackled the topic of the World Anti-Communist League and started listening to Dave Emory’s shows. (World Anti-Communist League Part 1, World Anti-Communist League Part 2)
I consider Dave Emory the world’s leading authority on fascism. He’s been studying the topic for 30 years. I also read some of the books he is always plugging; The Hitler Legacy, by Peter Levenda, The Beast Reawakens, by Martin A. Lee, and Dreamer of the Day, by Kevin Coogan. That led to my Underground Reich article.
Of course, for years I had worried about the fascist undercurrent in the alt-media and the amount of racism, xenophobia and antisemitism on social media, so I decided to use my article as a chance to speak out.
AV: Clearly this has been a profound journey, leading you deeper into what most find an incredibly difficult subject. How did you feel about these discoveries?
HT: Well, as a researcher, what I learn continues to amaze me. The more I dig into the history of postwar fascism, the more important the topic becomes. It is impossible to understand the Cold War without understanding America’s alliance with fascism. but most scholars completely ignore it. As a human being I was horrified to discover the scale of the fascist violence in places like America and Germany and the speed with which it can be completely forgotten. The size. scale and sophistication of the Underground Reich is shocking. Most people see fascism as a relic that will eventually disappear. Instead, it is a problem that is growing and morphing.
AV: It’s important you distinguish between your responses as a researcher and as a human being. It seems this balance has made it possible for you to process this information and not be overwhelmed by either its complexity or horror. And because of this, you are able to offer a unique perspective to your readers.
What impact did discovering the truth about the Underground Reich have on your understanding of current trends – and here I mean not only the popularization of fascism, but also the ways the Underground Reich has led to the destruction of most of its potential opposition?
HT: There is a symbiotic relationship between the faux left and the Underground Reich. After 9/11, Chomsky and other liberal gatekeepers, discouraged people from investigating the attacks. The extreme right, however, seized on the topic of 9/11, and although they ended up spreading confusion and disinformation along the way, they were onto something, while Chomsky was, as usual, dead wrong. When one learns of a shocking truth like government involvement in 9/11, it can shake one’s whole world view and one is, in that moment, ready to imprint whatever new world view is nearest to hand. Thus many people began to adopt an Alex Jones-style belief system. But few bothered to investigate the history of the American extreme right, and without knowing it, were being indoctrinated into fascism, while believing themselves to be freeing their minds. If they had traced back the origins of many of these ideas they would have discovered they were all popularized by fascists. And even if you point this fact out, many will remain in denial.
To understand American fascism you must begin by studying it in the post-1917 period, the fascist’s hatred of Franklin D. Roosevelt and the rise of the John Birch Society and similar groups after the war. The Arab world was also targeted with fascist propaganda for many decades and the ugly effects of this are apparent on social media.
Basically it’s time people began a mental housecleaning. For example, many oppose war but believe that the world’s problems will be solved by imposing an even harsher form of capitalism, oblivious to the fact that it is capitalism that drives war. They vilify “the globalists” (who are basically the world’s billionaires) and their lackeys, while at the same time demanding the exact same thing the globalists are working for, namely unfettered free market capitalism and further cuts to social spending. They claim to oppose the police state but view Black Lives Matter protests as solely a Soros conspiracy. Of course, they are misinterpreting the NGO complex which seeks to gain control of all social movements by buying off the leaders and steering them in a direction that doesn’t pose a threat to the system. In other words, people who began with good intentions, to oppose the war on terror and investigate CIA backing of terrorists, were subtly indoctrinated, and over time, the seeds planted back then have matured into full-blown American fascism. Now a huge section of the alternative media is happy simply to be paid propagandists for the Trump administration.
AV: I am glad you mentioned 9/11. Without doubt, this was a deep event. At that time, some recognized emergent trends that mirrored the rise of Nazi Germany, even going as far as to compare the destruction of the twin towers to the 1933 Reichstag fire. While a few protested the entrenchment of a fascist police state, the majority were remarkably passive, even indifferent, so to have a person like Trump in the White House today is not at all surprising.
Before we delve into the topic of NGOs, because you discovered a symbiotic relationship between the faux left and the Underground Reich, could you briefly address the distinction between faux revolutionary and authentic revolutionary movements? What dangers do legitimate revolutionary movements face from the Underground Reich’s efforts to infiltrate and subvert them?
HT: Unfortunately, my most disturbing discovery was that nearly everyone has been forced into at least temporary alliances with the Underground Reich, both in the socialist world and in the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM). The line between national liberation and fascism can be a blurry one. This is one of the keys to the success of the Underground Reich, since it is outwardly fragmented and constantly mutating, it has managed to ally itself with every side. It is like the CIA in Iraq which is backing all three sides in the war. This is clearly the model empire was using with the War on Terror. Back terrorists and at the same time offer support to the governments they are destabilizing. Then deploy terrorists to infiltrate and destroy those governments.
But to answer your question, genuine revolutionary movements seek to transform the entire society while fascist groups instead seek to scapegoat some group for the problem of society, be they immigrants, Jews, Muslims, or Blacks, etc. They thus channel rage away from the ruling class and towards the poor and powerless.
Infiltration by the Underground Reich can be used to discredit movements like, as one example, those seeking the liberation of Palestine. Over the decades they have learned to mask themselves behind nearly every cause or movement. Even opposition to fascist Ukraine has been infiltrated by a more sophisticated breed of fascist, the Duginists. In third world liberation, peace, ecology, democracy, anarchism, socialism, fascism has mutated to better infiltrate these movements. This is what is truly frightening.
AV: Hamas is certainly one movement that was discredited by Zionist infiltration, and we can elaborate on the relationship between Zionism and the Nazis later.
Since it is in the reformist and faux movements that the Underground Reich finds its operatives, how much of a role has the Underground Reich played in the creation of these movements?
Going farther, are Soros and the CIA mere fronts for the Underground Reich and would it be accurate to view the NGO non-profit complex as a superficial mechanism deployed by the Underground Reich to further its political agenda rather than a separate phenomenon?
HT: Before I answer I want to return to your earlier question about the Fourth Reich.
The Underground Reich is Dave Emory’s term for all the interlocking fascist deep political forces which he sees as centered in Germany, but with allies around the world. It is not how they refer to themselves. The Fourth Reich would be the goal that Nazis were striving towards who weren’t satisfied with a crypto-fascist Germany and wanted a return to full blown fascism. The Fourth Reich is also a term the media applied to Neo-Nazis who Emory and others prefer to simply call Nazis.
There are conflicts among the various networks that make up the Underground Reich, especially at the lower echelons. The Underground Reich is thus more of a conceptual framework for the fascist factions of the world’s deep political forces. Like interlocking circles of networks. Probably most important would be the business networks of German industrialists, capitalists, and their allies around the world in places like the US. Even within this circle there are matters of degree, some seeing fascism as a means to an end, others true believers.
Moving on to your question about the NGO complex and the Underground Reich, in coordination with intelligence agencies, oligarchs in general, not just the fascist ones, fund and run the NGO complex. This is the layer that Peter Dale Scott refers to as the overworld and of course there are different factions within the overworld – American, Israeli Japanese, British, GCC, etc. What portion of it are the Underground Reich would be difficult to determine. However, during the cold war, the CIA used German NGOs as fronts to funnel money for their various schemes to destabilize the USSR and to create a left compatible with their interests. Thus a huge portion of the NGO complex is controlled by the Underground Reich. Dave Emory believes Soros may be part of the Underground Reich and if true, they would have a tremendous amount of influence on the NGO complex. The various factions have their own networks and they all interconnect.
Related to this, an area that interests me most and that demonstrates the way the Underground Reich operates, is the role the Underground Reich played in the destruction of the Soviet Union. When I first learned of color revolutions I was reminded of the scenes of massive crowds protesting during the fall of the Soviet Union and I wondered what part intelligence agencies played. Since then I continue to discover clues that the Soviet Union was destroyed by NATO and the CIA. Fascists were deeply involved. For example, they played a major role in the fall of the Berlin Wall. Neo-Nazis crossed into East Germany and caused all sorts of chaos. Ukraine was of course the most blatant example of the Underground Reich’s role in a color revolution. However, in the so called Arab Spring and the dirty wars against Libya, and Syria, the Underground Reich worked through the fascist Muslim Brotherhood.
Western-leaning liberals in these countries seem to have no problem working with fascists and terrorists. The more foolish ones because they trust the Western media, the more cynical ones because they know they will be rewarded with money and power for their obedience.
Liberals in America have completely ignored the fascist coup in Ukraine and Obama’s criminal wars on Libya and Syria for similar reasons.
American special forces were trained by Nazis and other fascist veterans. Many of their early recruits were fascist exiles. They were based in Germany and old school special forces identified themselves not with their berets from the British SOE, but by their specially made German mountain boots. American special forces have been training terrorists for 70 years.
Gladio is one branch of the Underground Reich. Gladio B, as Sibel Edmonds points out, arose from the CIA’s alliance with Turkey’s fascist Grey Wolves. Turkey had deep connections to the Third Reich which used the pan-Turkish movement to recruit Turkic speaking Muslims in the Soviet Union into special SS divisions. As I discovered when I was researching there were deep connections between German, Polish, pan-Turkish , and Ukrainian fascists through the Promethean League. During the Cold War the US recruited all these elements to create a global fascist alliance, the World Anti-Communist League (WACL). There was a Muslim branch of WACL, the World Muslim Congress, run by the Saudis and Pakistanis. They were deeply involved in the creation of Al Qaeda during the war in Afghanistan in the 1980’s.
The Muslim Brotherhood worked first with the Nazis and then the Americans during and after the Cold War, targeting the Soviet Union and Arab Nationalist leaders. In Germany there is an infamous Mosque in Munich which is the Muslim Brotherhood’s main European base of operations, originally built for the pan-Turkish Waffen SS that settled in Germany.
Ukrainian fascists fought alongside Al Qaeda in Chechnya and ISIS has been brought into Ukraine to wage war on the Donbass. As their genocidal behavior in Libya, and Syria demonstrates, Al-Qaeda is a fascist organization. Western fascists and Al-Qaeda terrorists are deeply interconnected and used for the same purposes, foot soldiers of the empire.
AV: Hugo, not only is this essential to understanding the history and evolution of the Underground Reich, everything is relevant to current wars of aggression and campaigns of destabilization.
Regarding the Muslim Brotherhood, American and British intelligence (MI6) are not only working hard to recruit members into the organization, they are also diligently promoting them through media and websites such as Conflicts Forum, to present a polished persona of the Brotherhood as the Arab World’s ultimate expression of resistance to imperialism. It is not surprising to find some of their operatives posing as activists, giving interviews to Press TV and Russia Today. In my view, there is no neutral position for one to take on this issue. As I stated in my interview on Libya, “The various organizations working within the Muslim Brotherhood network differ in degree but not in kind. There can be no effective end to terror without dealing with the specter of the Muslim Brotherhood in its entirety.”
We will delve into this and other manifestations of the Underground Reich in future segments.
In Part II we continue to explore the history of the Underground Reich from its origins through to the present to provide appropriate context for understanding its function in the destabilization of sovereign nations and international terrorism.
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